James Grayston
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My wife would be one that would enjoy the more expensive wine because she was told it was more expensive. I, on the other hand would be just like you, Ben. I would be extremely enthralled by a great $5 wine.

I read about a double-blind study in which tasters preferred the same wine when told it was more expensive.

I think I’m exactly the opposite. I’ll be much more enthralled by a great $5 wine than a $10 one that may be objectively better. I’m just a sucker for good wine at hobo prices!

We strive to create shows in many different formats. If “host banter” is not your thing, then we also have non-hosted shows and seminars. All of our videos (with only a few exceptions) are not hosted and are told through the words of the person being interviewed.

Mark

All fair comments. I agree that the roundtable format is an interesting format. Your show on “Hiding Wines” was a hoot, I shared that one with several wine geek friends. We all related, even me with a very supportive wine drinking wife.

I agree the topic of cellar inheritance has some interesting aspects. Like, when does one stop buying in anticipation of one’s own demise? I’d rather guess wrong and keep buying to the very end. If there is wine of note left behind, I figure someone will find a home for it.

I guess a bit of personal banter is to be expected from guys who have spent so much time, energy and passion building your shows to the level its at. So, put me in a very small minority who have some bias against “host banter”. Frankly, every major broadcaster, anchor personalities, etc. all do it. I should get over my issue and let you keep yourselves very much in the show.

Regards

RHH

I have mixed feelings about your second point. Many listeners seem to like the round table format. Te shows are not scripted so they can go off on weird tangents. However, my ego, while quite large must concede the idea that the topic is more important than ourselves. I must confess that it would be hard for me to “remove myself” from the show. You have given me something to think about at length.

Jay

I found the show interesting, but would have liked to have had some industry professional (e.g. major retailer, distributor, or comparable segment) on the show to provide more than the anecdotal/consumer perspective. You guys clearly have great knowledge and depth, but a voice from inside the business of actually selling wine would have added a bit of interest for me, FWIW.

You did lose me however when you drifted off to the “last rites” portion of the show. With all respect, that came across as too much of “inside jokedom”. I really tune out when any form of presentation devolves into the hosts largely talking to and about each other. Save that for when the mikes are off.

That last point a minor criticism. All in all, you guys do great shows. Keep up the good work. I podcast for gym listening, and have learned a tremendous amount over several years and shows.

I would say that both of us are wrong if we speak in absolutes. For every example you show for a price going down, I can also show you examples of wine prices going up.

I think the prices for wines do not closely correlate to vintage differences.

I did not intent to suggest that by definition, $10 equates to value. So I agree with your statement. I would add that “value” is intensely personal and is not always based on whats in the bottle.

Why am I not on your list?

Jay

you also stated that there is no price variation across vintage. i disagee with that. check out prices on 2004 larcis ducasse against 2005.

i disagree that $10 wine represents value. value must be considered within context.

there were other points as well, but i can not remember them.

finally, on rusty’s romantic notion of drinking his last bottle on his last day; i could not agree more. that said, as i get my affairs in order, i am leaving wines from specific regions to specific friends. and while i do love you jay, you are not on my list either!

best,
paul.

On what points do you disagree?

Jay

format – i have always loved this round table format. an idea would be to bring in a consumer or some other wine geek to perhaps add to the discussion.

1st time – i found myself disagreeing with jay on so many issues! i still love you jay, but i found my opinion varied from yours on this show, which in general, is rare.

julie lindsey – concur! sexist! quote all of the marketing details you want here, i found the generalizations sexist. and if one is looking for value, one does not go to a grocery store, no matter what their wine selection or how high end they are, for value. in my mind, a $10 bottle with a monkey on it is not value.

rusty gaffney – yet again, i have enormous respect for the man and his opinion. he can come to any of my tastings any time (next one is 3/11 in wla – 2001 burgs).

la tache – 2005 release price, if you had a relationship with a retailer who sold you the wine for normal markup the price was $1100. probably peaked at $4500 (i could have sold mine at that price). recently saw it offered for $2750.

$80 pinot that costs $20 – winery needs to protect the channel! not every wine gets sold off the mailing list, especially in today’s economy. if the wine gets totally sold off the mailing list, then good for them. 1 issue i agree with jay on the show – markets are efficient.

value – value is relative. 2006 leflaive p-m pucelles at $225 is not value; at $145 buyers are everywhere. $290 for 2004 giacosa asili riserva – buyers everywhere. value is relative to the pedigree.

prices – are going down! like everything else in the economy. perhaps not napa prices, but i think a lot of wineries will go broke. especially newer ones. they paid SO much for real estate, they have to charge expensive prices to keep up with payments. old world wines definitely fluctuate in prices. 2005 bordeaux currently at first tranche prices in some instances! 2006 burgs are coming down. look at all of the retailers announcing sale this or sale that… its amazing to think that jay thinks the prices are going up. if the economy continues to tank, i think i will soon get my SQN allocation!

very stimulating show. i rarely find value in $10 wines. but my palate is spoiled. i would love to have 96 camuzet cros parentoux as house red and 96 krug as house white/champagne. after drinking those, hard to buy the $10 wine with the cute bunny.

paul.

But, the point we were trying to express was that women do the bulk of grocery shopping (most men are far too lazy – especially me) and therefore women end up purchasing the bulk of wine consumed in the USA.

Don’t take our word for it – we found several sources – they are the basis for our comments:

- 72% of all wine purchases in US Supermarkets are made by women – Source: Vineyard & Winery Mgmt Magazine
- 80% of all wine purchased in the United States cost $10 or less. Source: Lodi News Sentinel

Large wine companies are also well aware of these fact and I can guarantee you (based on first first-hand knowledge) that they design their labels to appeal to this demographic.

So yes women do purchase a lot of value prices wines based on label design. I also know a few guys that do it. LOL.

But this is no way implies that women are not sophisticated wine drinkers who can also drop big bucks to purchase the wines they desire.

It has been my personal experience (there is a great deal of data to support this) that women actually have a much greater perception of taste and are better critics of wine then men. I believe this has to do with a women’s ability to smell which is known to be superior to that of a man – And since most taste is based on smell – well the women are better at it (We have often comment about this fact on the show).

All my best,

Brian

I enjoyed the dialogue immensely until it got to that point… thanks for letting me vent!

Our intent with this show was to address today’s wine prices, mostly in general but we did bring into play the context of our current economic environment. We’ve always tried to produce a balanced show – one that educates novice as well as knowledgeable wine people. So, if our demeanor or something we said came across as “snobby,” it was certainly not our intention.

Some further thoughts on wine prices:
• I think any wine you buy ought to be worth whatever you pay for it.
• “Worth” is a relative term, and is difficult to quantify.
• Setting some benchmark minimum per bottle cost could realistically only apply to myself.
• There is no question that others may set higher benchmarks for themselves, but given that we all different economic means, this doesn’t necessarily equate to snobbiness.
• I feel that I can find very enjoyable wines for under $10.
• I would agree with you – I can and do find amazing wines in the $25-30 range, but that doesn’t mean I won’t spend more for what might be impulsive, emotional or speculative reasons.

Eric

However, Rusty’s point is well taken. Some people might be mortified to even attend such a tasting. And, God help you if you’re the one who drags such a wine to a “regular” tasting.

Eric

With wine, it’s usually a simple proposition for me: I consider the wine’s cost, relative to my level of enjoyment – or, bang for my buck, as it were. Admittedly, there are also times when I will gladly pay for a product that seemingly goes beyond that particular benchmark. Sometimes it’s just speculation, or maybe I know the principal(s), admire the site, or find that its relative scarcity to be worthwhile.

And, I think emotion also plays into determining the value for me. For instance, I might readily consider a wine over $100 to be a value if it provided me with enjoyment commensurate with its price tag. Maybe it’s a gift, special occasion, unusual bottling, etc. However, even if my purchase is impulsive, it still needs to measure up somehow in my head as a logical thing to buy.

Eric

Jay

As far as price. Like most things, price seems to be only one seems to be influenced but not chained to quality. I would say that a most $200 bottles of wine are not 10 times better that some fine $20 bottles of wine. And there is where it gets hard to quantify. There is more to wine than the price. But sometimes we buy a wine regardless of the price, or maybe because of it. The price, quality, consistency and image are all aspects of wine to be considered.

And ultimately, it is not just a value proposition. You can’t base it on the cost of the raw ingredients. Your not paying for that. If you were, I will sell you some grapes, yeast and a tablespoon of tartaric acid. The consumer is paying for the winemaker’s skill of knowing what to do and when to do it. And his doing it consistently. You are paying for the winery owners putting their families savings and kids college funds into an investment depend on them making wine that people want to buy.

We can’t reduce it down to x dollars to produce times a profit margin.

Tim

Jay

Before I get too sappy, I will say, Jay, that Burgundy prices DO fluctuate with the quality of the vintage – 2006 as a whole is less expensive than 2005 (even considering the high price of the Euro when many importers bought 2006), and I would predict the same for red Burgundy in 2007. Wait a few more months and I’m sure you’ll see some “bargains” in 2006 Burgundy as retailers try to dump them as the 2007′s arrive.

I’ve cut back on mailing list purchases and have been looking for more values. I have set an arbitary $30 bottle price limit for myself that I’ve been following for the past 3-4 months and intend to follow all year. I’m replacing the $40-$50 pinots with $20-$30 pinots, and good ones are out there if you look hard enough. I will miss the Loring wines, though .

I’ve also tried the new WSJWine club and have found a few nice 85-89 point range everyday drinkers for less than $15. It has the side benefit for me of exposing me to things I probably wouldn’t have tried otherwise, and that’s fun.

Keep the conversation coming, guys! Thanks.

Chris

Jay

So, here’s this $10 wine hanging out and living large with the rest of the players – all of which just goes to show that you can’t completely judge a wine by its price.

Eric

Good show by the way. I appreciate hearing your perspectives.

The last 20 years or so have seen a huge change for the wine consumers as far as quality of wines, back then you had to shell out bucks for a decent wine and now there is such a head spinning choice for really good inexpensive wines.

Personally I’m not a collector because I drink too often. I only buy 50$ bottles a few times a year (except at restaurants) because I feel there are so many exceptional wines at about the $30 range.

Cesar

Jay

I know I’ve been banging this drum incessantly, but Spain and many parts of France have been and still are delivering on wines of great value. The southern hemisphere is banging on the door as well. Still, it seems like a sad day when you can get better value from a wine that’s being shipped across an ocean, as opposed to one that’s grown in your own backyard.

The bottom line is there’s still a lot of good wine out there at reasonable prices. You just have to search a bit – and that’s not a bad thing, because it IS all about discovery!

Eric

Jay